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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>Meetings 2021-07-07 · t-libs/meetings · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
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<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html">Meetings 2021-07-07</a></h3>

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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245203430" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Mara <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245203430">(Jul 07 2021 at 16:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="4493">@T-libs</span> <span aria-label="tada" class="emoji emoji-1f389" role="img" title="tada">:tada:</span>  We have a meeting at <time datetime="2021-07-07T18:00:00Z">2021-07-07T20:00:00+02:00</time>. Agenda: <a href="https://hackmd.io/ISIzcD-4QhyQgtw45GtD9A">https://hackmd.io/ISIzcD-4QhyQgtw45GtD9A</a></p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245204716" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Mara <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245204716">(Jul 07 2021 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>And <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="2645">@T-libs-api</span> we have a meeting too <span aria-label="tada" class="emoji emoji-1f389" role="img" title="tada">:tada:</span> At <time datetime="2021-07-07T19:00:00Z">2021-07-07T21:00:00+02:00</time>! Agenda: <a href="https://hackmd.io/N-VdKTiLSxOAVT5R_BWOqQ">https://hackmd.io/N-VdKTiLSxOAVT5R_BWOqQ</a></p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245218796" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Mara <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245218796">(Jul 07 2021 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="4493">@T-libs</span> meeting time! <a href="https://meet.jit.si/rust-libs-meeting-ujepnbwg2lzqgt6wvrndwimi">https://meet.jit.si/rust-libs-meeting-ujepnbwg2lzqgt6wvrndwimi</a></p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245227033" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Mara <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245227033">(Jul 07 2021 at 19:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="2645">@T-libs-api</span> <a href="https://meet.jit.si/rust-libs-meeting-crxoz2at8hiccp7b3ixf89qgxfymlbwr">https://meet.jit.si/rust-libs-meeting-crxoz2at8hiccp7b3ixf89qgxfymlbwr</a></p>



<a name="245238909"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245238909" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> cuviper <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245238909">(Jul 07 2021 at 20:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>regarding the macOS support question, here's the release-team issue about that: <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/release-team/issues/2">https://github.com/rust-lang/release-team/issues/2</a></p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245239252" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> inquisitivecrystal <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245239252">(Jul 07 2021 at 20:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>It looks like there's a provision relating to this in the target tier policy.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Note that in some cases, based on the usage of existing targets within the Rust community, Rust developers or a target's maintainers may wish to modify the baseline expectations of a target, or split an existing target into multiple targets with different baseline expectations. A proposal to do so will be treated similarly to the analogous promotion, demotion, or removal of a target, according to this policy, with the same team approvals required.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>For instance, if an OS version has become obsolete and unsupported, a target for that OS may raise its baseline expectations for OS version (treated as though removing a target corresponding to the older versions), or a target for that OS may split out support for older OS versions into a lower-tier target (treated as though demoting a target corresponding to the older versions, and requiring justification for a new target at a lower tier for the older OS versions).</p>
</blockquote>



<a name="245239393"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245239393" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> inquisitivecrystal <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245239393">(Jul 07 2021 at 20:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>The agenda says that there's "No clear policy", so I thought I should mention that there is one. :)</p>



<a name="245241220"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245241220" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> cuviper <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245241220">(Jul 07 2021 at 20:58)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="417924">@inquisitivecrystal</span> thanks, I just added a comment for that. And as mentioned, we don't have a good CI story for these things, which is how <code>linkat</code> made it all the way to release</p>



<a name="245246864"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245246864" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245246864">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:49)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="417924">@inquisitivecrystal</span> I think what that note in the agenda came from is that while there's a clear policy for <em>how</em> to demote a target, there isn't a clear policy for how long we continue supporting an old OS version that's no longer vendor-supported.</p>



<a name="245246905"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245246905" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245246905">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>The Target Tier Policy specifies that a target "may" raise its baseline expectations, but doesn't say when it <em>should</em>.</p>



<a name="245246941"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245246941" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245246941">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>(By design.)</p>



<a name="245247117"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247117" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> inquisitivecrystal <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247117">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would have guessed that you would drop it after it no longer meets the minimum fexpectations for the tier, which includes CI availability. But you wrote the TTP, so if you say it doesn't say that, it doesn't.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247342" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247342">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>Heh. As much as I appreciate that, the document <em>is</em> supposed to stand alone, and authorial intent shouldn't be required for interpretation. :)</p>



<a name="245247376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247376">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think, in practice, "no longer meets the minimum expectations for the tier" is a necessary but not always sufficient condition.</p>



<a name="245247390"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247390" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247390">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>Because we also have to take into account the disruptiveness of removing a target.</p>



<a name="245247504"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247504" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247504">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>So I think the additional criteria is something involving weighing 1) the amount of pain it costs to maintain and test support for the older version, 2) the proportion of people who need the older version, and 3) the proportion of people willing to <em>work on</em> support for the older version.</p>



<a name="245247541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247541">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>If (1) is very low, we can keep maintaining it for longer. If (1) is very high, and (2) and (3) are very low, we might drop it more quickly.</p>



<a name="245247664"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247664" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> inquisitivecrystal <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247664">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's fair, yeah. I definitely wouldn't drop an old version from tier 1 just because it no longer "serve[s] the ongoing needs of multiple production users of Rust across multiple organizations or projects".</p>



<a name="245247831"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247831" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247831">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Not instantly, at any rate.</p>



<a name="245247897"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings%202021-07-07/near/245247897" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> inquisitivecrystal <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/259402-t-libs/meetings/topic/Meetings.202021-07-07.html#245247897">(Jul 07 2021 at 21:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd think that CI dropping report would be a strong reason to start considering whether it's time to drop it. But I recognize that at this point I'm talking about what I think is probably sensible and not what I think the TTP says.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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